TD's Territirial Designations

[J Duncan of Sketraw]

A territorial designation although primarily a Scottish title is one of the few titles still associated with the land after the abolishion of feudalism in Scotland and in some ways (don't get angry boys) to me anyway, holds more credence than that of a 'Feudal Barony' which now sadly has been disassociated from the land.

The point I am trying to get at here is, those of us with TD's have no way of showing our title "Laird of Whatever" or "McNastie of Whatever" in the way of additaments on our achievements unlike Feudal Barons with cloaks and chapeaus etc.

It just seems sad to me that one of the few 'Scots Titles' left associated with the land (and in bygone days, that's what it was all about) have no way of showing this on our arms.

[Stephen J F Plowman]

John

I can see how it can be so frustrating. Unfortunately, I don’t think there has been a tradition in either England or Scotland to reflect land ownership in Armorial Bearings. Armorially speaking, there is no way to differentiate between my modest garden with an estate of a few hundred acres held by a distant cousin. The only difference is in the “age” of the Arms. All the additaments associated with the Scottish Feudal Barons were, as I understand the position, linked to their various rights & duties rather than the ownership of the caput per se. One could argue that with the removal of any baronial duties, the baronial (heraldic) rights are no longer necessary. That of course would ignore all aspects of tradition and history.

The above said; there is nothing to stop Lord Lyon starting a new tradition. The very fact that he has to grant/acknowledge a Territorial Declaration does put it in a unique position. The name of the land could be represented on a scroll beneath the Arms (or some such position). The style of the scroll could be defined so that it is not confused with any Arms that display a slughorn in addition to their motto.

Just my two penny worth.

[Jeremy Kudlick]

I'm farther removed from this issue than many on this forum, but I have an idea that perhaps could be presented to Lord Lyon. If one is recognized with a territorial designation, perhaps Lord Lyon could include a compartment of land with said designation on a scroll laid upon the compartment. For example, John's arms could rest upon a compartment of land that has a scroll with the word "SKETRAW" written on it.

If Lyon has an issue with the arms upon a compartment with nothing to support it, suggest having a few rocks around the base; the shield would be supported without having heraldic supporters.

Edit: After I posted this, I realized I basically acted as a necromancer for this thread, but I see John's point. Lyon has to approve the TD, so why should it not be noted in the arms.

[Steven Harris]

Given the territorial designation's connection to named land, and given the precedent set by the gules and azure chapeaux, each turned up ermine, used by feudal barons - I am of the mind that a vert chapeau turned up ermine would be especially appropriate for a laird (that is, one holding a territorial designation). Not only is a chapeau a known additament in Scots heraldry, but the green is currently unused and is a clear reference to land (at least to me).

[J Duncan of Sketraw]

Dont think that will ever happen Steven