Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

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J Duncan of Sketraw
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Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by J Duncan of Sketraw » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:10 pm

The Arms of Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton, Scotland

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Entry:- http://www.armorial-register.com/arms-s ... -arms.html
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Chris Green » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:35 pm

I am somewhat surprised to see the explanation for the fleur-de-lis in chief being that they "reflect the Norman heritage [of the Pickering family]". The fleur-de-lis is associated primarily with the Ile de France and with French Kings, mythically from the time of Clovis, but heraldically from Louis VIII. The Chief Azure three Fleur-de-Lis Or was most often an augmentation of honour, one Anglo/Irish example being the arms of Sir Barnaby Fitzpatrick, friend of King Edward VI and his envoy to France. The only obvious connection with Normandy is the chief in the arms of Rouen:

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but once again this was an augmentation of honour reflecting the city's loyalty to the French Crown.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:43 am

Which probably goes to show that when you look at a coat of arms you can't take it for granted that a particular charge or display really means anything unless you know the history/rational behind it. Whilst an augmentation of honour is clearly defined, nowadays any individual armiger can ascribe any meaning to any of their own chosen designs. It would appear that, in Scotland at least, three Golden fleur-de-lis upon a chief Azure is not reserved as an augmentation of France. Given that in Scotland arms of a name are generally similar perhaps from now on this chief might be reserved for those of the name Pickering?
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Chris Green » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:46 am

Lord Lyon really should know better.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:58 am

You may well be right however, there are a number of instances where Lyons have either chosen to remain in ignorance of or perhaps deliberately ignored foreign arms. I know of at least two instances where arms have recently been granted that are identical in every way to ancient English arms. In one of those instances, it is my belief that the petitioner deliberately attempted to appear to be a direct descendant of the ancient English family when there was absolutely no proof of descent (had there been such proof, he could have lodged a pedigree with the College of Arms and claimed a right to the ancient English arms). I am convinced that no check was made by Lyon Office to ascertain whether the arms already existed in a neighboring Heraldic Jurisdiction.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Chris Green » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:23 am

Lord Lyon Really should know better!
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:17 pm

Curious as to the two Scottish/English duplications Martin cited; though I understand if he doesn't feel comfortable "outing" Lyon ;)
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Chris Green » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:25 pm

“Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a habit.”
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:33 am

My recall may be faulty (not uncommon nowadays!) but IIRC Major Massey's arms were a Spanish certification, later matriculated by Lyon; apologies if I'm mis-remembering.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:19 am

Michael F. McCartney wrote:My recall may be faulty (not uncommon nowadays!) but IIRC Major Massey's arms were a Spanish certification, later matriculated by Lyon; apologies if I'm mis-remembering.
I don't have sufficient information to put a different scenario however, Lyon has it within his authority to enforce any difference he deems to be fitting. I'm quite sure that had Major Massey presented Lyon with a Spanish achievement identical to an existing Scots achievement, Lyon would have insisted that there be some obvious change. I would also imagine that Lyon has it within his gift to decline to record arms in his register; a scenario which might occur if, for example, a petitioner presented Spanish arms identical to, say, Moncreifffe of that Ilk and the petitioner was not willing to accept any change.

Oh well, c'est la vie.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:26 pm

Don't disagree with Martin. In fairness to recent Lyons, this would have been some time back, when Lyon would more or less routinely accept Spanish "grants" (certifications from the Cronista) for matriculation where the petitioner had no particular Scottish connection; which IIRC was a practice discontinued two or three Lyons ago.
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Re: Philip David Pickering, Baron of Newton No.0392

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:21 am

Michael F. McCartney wrote: //snip// which IIRC was a practice discontinued two or three Lyons ago.
I believe that you are correct.
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