Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

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J Duncan of Sketraw
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Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by J Duncan of Sketraw » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:21 pm

The Arms of Robert Taylor Koehler, USA

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Chris Green
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Chris Green » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:23 pm

I have three problems with the Agnus Dei. An Agnus Dei or Paschal Lamb must of its very nature be argent (or proper). It is after all intended to represent Christ as a sacrificial lamb, not some sort of devil sheep. Secondly, an Agnus Dei (or indeed any sheep or lamb) cannot be "armed". It has no claws. It is hooved. Thirdly, the convention is that the cross on the pennon should be gules not azure.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:25 am

Thank you for your observations Chris, we may be forced to make unilateral changes to the blazon and alter it to:

Argent, a lamb passant Gules haloed and hooved Or supporting a cross-staff Gules flying a pennon Argent charged with a cross Azure, on a chief embattled Azure three escallop shells Or.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Chris Green » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:32 am

Thank you. I am extremely surprised that someone who wants to emphasise Christianity would not understand the significance of the Agnus Dei and its unique appearance.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:36 am

Given the history of this application, which took over 12 months to reach a conclusion after numerous twists and turns, I am not surprised by anything.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Mark Helderton » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:38 am

Agreed about the 'hooved' instead of 'armed', but perhaps the colours are not so significant to the armiger? Perhaps it is more the symbolism in the forms and not the symbolism in the colours that he is more concerned with, a blue lion for example won't take away from the fact that it still has the usual attributes of a lion, but is just blue because it happens to look better colourwise on the shield.

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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Chris Green » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:49 am

Mark Helderton wrote:Agreed about the 'hooved' instead of 'armed', but perhaps the colours are not so significant to the armiger? Perhaps it is more the symbolism in the forms and not the symbolism in the colours that he is more concerned with, a blue lion for example won't take away from the fact that it still has the usual attributes of a lion, but is just blue because it happens to look better colourwise on the shield.
Agreed, one is unlikely ever to come across a blue lion any more than one may see a red lamb. However the heraldic lion is not replete with Christian symbolism, whereas the Agnus Dei most certainly is. The sacrificial lamb must be pure and without blemish. Thus it must be white to represent the perfect sacrifice of Christ himself.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Stephen J F Plowman » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:57 am

Before Christmas I was discussing with my first TA Company Commander my petition for a heraldic badge. He suggested a Pascal Lamb as a nod to the The Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment (aka The Mutton Lancers) which was one of founding Regiments of The Queen's Regiment (now in turn part of the PWRR). I was initially taken by the idea but eventually opted for another design because I felt it too presumptuous to even attempt to petition for the use of such a iconic symbol.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Mark Helderton » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:29 pm

I'm sorry Chris but all you need do is a google image search for 'blue lion heraldry' to see plenty of examples of blue lions in heraldry, and many other creatures of 'incorrect' colours of various symbolisms. The current arms of Denmark for example:

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and there are quite a few examples of 'religious sheep' in varying tinctures:

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The three above have already broken your rule about an Argent Agnus Dei.

One could argue that St. George's cross in the first example isn't really St. George's cross because it isn't Gules and Argent - that flag certainly has religious symbolism, and yet there it is granted by an heraldic authority.

I don't think it is for anyone to knock his choice of colours because of their preconceived ideas of what a symbol should look like according to their own individual ideas of right and wrong. A golden lion is a symbol of the holy spirit in many supposedly 'incorrect' forms of christianity - Gnosticism being an example. Perhaps the Gules sheep is there to show that the sheep or what it represents is tainted or corrupted in some way, or maybe a red sheep simply looks cool. Regardless of his reasons for having a red Agnus Dei, I certainly don't see a problem with it - I think it is unique and looks good on his shield.

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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Chris Green » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:07 pm

I'm sorry Chris but all you need do is a google image search for 'blue lion heraldry' to see plenty of examples of blue lions in heraldry, and many other creatures of 'incorrect' colours of various symbolisms.
My dear Mark, I am well aware of the plethora of lions in every heraldic colour and in more attitudes than one can shake a stick at. My points, which you seem to have missed, are 1) that in life, unlike in heraldry, one is unlikely to see either a red lamb or a blue lion; and 2) that whether an heraldic lion is yellow, blue or any other tincture has no specific religious significance. The Agnus Dei, as I have explained before, is, and must be, white, to illustrate the unblemished sacrifice of Christ. That there are examples of gold Agnus Dei is I suppose to be expected, since some ignorant people might assume that gold was superior to white, But they have missed the point. The blue lions of the Kings of Denmark are of course just blue lions.
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Re: Robert Taylor Koehler No. 0412

Post by Mark Helderton » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:22 pm

Chris, it seems to be you that has missed every single point I have made, but I will respectfully leave it there.

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