Genealogy/Heraldry Inquiry

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Guye Pennington
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Genealogy/Heraldry Inquiry

Post by Guye Pennington » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:07 pm

Greetings, all! I posted something similar to this on the HSS Forum, but it got pulled (perhaps because it was about English heraldry instead of Scottish?). I'd like a little help on whether something might be true or not. A Pennington researcher across the pond theorizes that the Muncaster Penningtons are illegitimate children of the original Percy family. While I'm currently trying to get the articles he wrote on the matter, I know one circumstantial link is the similarity in arms (original Percy arms of Azure, five fusils in fesse Or; Muncaster Pennington arms of Or, five fusils in fess Azure) as well as somewhat close original geographic locality. According to the book Kings of the North, the five fusil charge is a derivative of a Flemish spindle. It used to be thought that the original Percys were Normans, but I think current thinking is that they were Flemish but moved to Normandy before the Conquest.
Anyway, my question is this: of course, we are talking about very early arms from hundreds of years ago, and I realize that one can find little hard evidence on these matters, but what does the group think? Would a strong similarity of arms suggest a similar genetic background or is it far more likely just a heraldic coincidence?
Many thanks, and have a great day!
Guye
Guye W. Pennington
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Stephen J F Plowman
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Post by Stephen J F Plowman » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:51 am

Guye

I don't think it was pulled. There is a post of yours mentioning the Percys in the midst of the thread "Once a Knight is enough" in the Historical heraldry section.
Yours aye

Stephen


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Guye Pennington
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Post by Guye Pennington » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:08 pm

Thanks, Stephen! How odd -- I looked up my profile at the time I noticed the omission and it said I had posted 0 messages, which of course was not accurate. Perhaps that section of HSS went offline for a brief spell and then was restored?

Nevertheless, given the not quite robust number of responses to my query, is it safe to say that one is not able to say with any degree of certainty? That is, the arms could be just a heraldic coincidence or it also could be there there is a genetic link, but we just can't tell for sure. What are everyone's thoughts?

Many thanks, and have a great day!
Guye
Guye W. Pennington
"Victory without honor is defeat."

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: Genealogy/Heraldry Inquiry

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:00 pm

Guye Pennington wrote: Would a strong similarity of arms suggest a similar genetic background or is it far more likely just a heraldic coincidence?
Many thanks, and have a great day!
Guye
Neither :wink:

It does not necessarily signify a similar genetic background, nor does it suggest that it was simply coincidence.

It was (in the early days of heraldry) quite common for vassals to either take (or be given by their feudal overlord) armorial bearings that were similar to, or complimented, the arms of their feudal overlord. The Percy's were a very powerful landowning family and you state that the Penningtons were seated in the same geographic location so it may be more likely that the Percy's were their feudal overlord [the Penningtons held their land of the Percys]. Taking arms similar to those of their overlord signified a sort of feudal allegiance.
Martin Goldstraw

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Guye Pennington
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Post by Guye Pennington » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:35 pm

Very interesting, Martin! I had not considered that possibility, and it certainly makes sense.

Thanks, and have a great day!

Guye
Guye W. Pennington
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