commoner arms

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Joseph M James
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commoner arms

Post by Joseph M James » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:53 am

The Siebmacher series of books contains 14 vols. of burger or commoner arms pub.1885 thru 1961. Ottfried Neubecker then published in 1985, the Grosses Wappen-Bilder lexicon containing the over 21,000 illustrations of these arms. I have a copy of this book should someone want or need something out of it. I also have a copy of the general index for Siebmachers 1605-1961. Again I'm willing to share info.
My question is, has anyone done a comprehensive work such as this with the commoner arms of England,Great Britain etc.( just a picture of the arms in black and white, no tricking and with the surname,but no pedigrees etc. cross referenced by main charge and surname? How many commoner arms are there? If the answer to the 1st. question is no and I was 40 yrs. younger I might have just found a life hobby.
Mr. Goldstraw, in an earlier post you mentioned being willing to provide a list of books concerning the origins of heraldry in England. I would appreciate that list if still possible. J M joe James

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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:37 pm

One of the most easily obtained reference books (though neither complete nor authoritative) is Burke's General Armory which, although it does not meet your criteria of providing pictures and surnames, is a useful resource. It is entirely in blazon and so is a good tool for learning same. If you wish to begin to identify arms from images you will need Papworths Ordinary but to use this, you will need to be conversant with the language of blazon.

If you wish to learn something of the use and development of arms in the UK then there are a number of books \I would recommend which are easily available. I have already mentioned the Scottish book but for a more general read (but probably more English based) I would suggest The Art of Heraldry by A. C. Fox-Davies (this can be expensive as it is a large book) or an abbreviated version A Complete Guide to Heraldry by the same author. If you wish to consider taking the IAAH examination then you will need to look at "Boutell" English Heraldry (get the most up to date version you can find).

There are more but that's a good start.
Martin Goldstraw

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:39 am

The definition of "commoner" can be more complicated than it looks. IIRC (a doubtful notion!) in the UK a "commoner: is anyone other than a peer - even the peer's siblpngs and children are "commoners" (except maybe the oldest son, who will inherit the title? - not sure about that...) So in any reference or source not strictly limited to the peerageany & all arms will be "commoners" - and even the peers' arms, shorn of barred helmet and supporters for use by his family members, will also be "commoners" arms. The term "commoner" may -- likely does - have different meanings elsewhere.

Changing gears, and taking you up on your kind offer, does your Siebmacher have a listing for anyone surnamed Mumbauer/Mombower/Mumpower, or other reasonable spelling variants? (A name in my maternal line) Thanks!
Mike~~
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Martin Goldstraw
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Martin Goldstraw » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:14 pm

Michael F. McCartney wrote:The definition of "commoner" can be more complicated than it looks. IIRC (a doubtful notion!) in the UK a "commoner: is anyone other than a peer - even the peer's siblpngs and children are "commoners" (except maybe the oldest son, who will inherit the title? - not sure about that...) So in any reference or source not strictly limited to the peerageany & all arms will be "commoners" - and even the peers' arms, shorn of barred helmet and supporters for use by his family members, will also be "commoners" arms. The term "commoner" may -- likely does - have different meanings elsewhere.
Agreed, I believe that I had made a similar summery in another thread originated by the questioner.
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Joseph M James
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Joseph M James » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:14 pm

Mr. Goldstraw, I found all 3 of those books on archive.org. of course the Boutells is old. I skimmed though the Art of Heraldry and was amazed how many times it referenced German heraldry until I read about the book itself and discovered parts of it were based on English translations of Strohl's Heraldischer Atlas. I like this book. Thank you for telling me about it. I actually like all 3. Mixing a little German with English, kinda like what I wanted to do with those arms I mentioned in my other thread. J M Joe James

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Re: commoner arms

Post by Joseph M James » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:46 am

Mr. McCartney, I couldn't find Mumbauer,but Mumbauer is a German surname. The other two appear to be Americanized versions of the same name. Just because it's not in Siebmachers doesn't mean that much,the arms attributed to my 6xggf are not in Siebmachers,they were found though genealogy buried in church records all of which were gathered up many years ago by the German government and put in a centralized repository. Plus local nobles granted arms( the Art of Heraldry 1904 pg.11 paragraph associated with footnote a) many of which never got into large official records of arms,just local church records. The Germans seemed to change their surnames at will,just go to the local church and change it with no explanation. My mother's family surname changed twice: Zipf/Zipfel/Zippelius. Bauer is one of the many German words for farmer and is listed 31 times and 11 times with Pauer with a mix of what I would loosely call noble and burger arms. The Germans also changed or interchanged the 1st. letters of their surnames, (B-P)-(C-K-Z)-(D-DH-T-TH)-(F-V)-(I-J-Y)-(K-KH-C-CH-G-GH)-(V-F-W)-(Z-ZH-ZS-ZSCH-C-CH-CS-CZ). It is not beyond the realm of possibility that "MUM" was added due to a family squabble,change in politics or religion etc, and any resulting arms or the ability to trace Mumbauer back to a Bauer armiger are in a church record waiting to be discovered. I even checked some digital collections in museums in Germany. I wish I could have found something definite.
J M JOE James

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:43 am

Thanks for looking!
The spelling variants I mentioned are, as you say, just different ways of spelling the same name. My guess is that the family were essentially poor farmers (a more diplomatic term than peasants;) ) who emigrated to escape the constant religious and territorial warfare in the Rheinland in the 1700's
Mike~~
Fremont, California

Kevin Wood
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Kevin Wood » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:54 pm

Hi Joseph.

I sent you a PM of this info too. But in case you don't receive that, I thought I would post in the thread too...

I realize this is a rather old post, but are you still willing/able to share from the book you have? My family surname is Scheytt, and according to an online index I found, it is supposed to be in a volume of the Siebmacher that is still under copyright, so they have not published a digitized version online. I would love to see a pic of my family's arms if you were somehow able.

Thanks -

Kevin Wood

Joseph M James
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Joseph M James » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Kevin, you caught me on a rare day, I have been so busy for so long that I haven't visited the forum in what seems like an eternity and Lord knows when I'll be back. I looked up Scheytt in Neubecker's and this is the only coa I found. You probably know through Siebmacher's index the coa is from Illingen, Germany.
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: commoner arms

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:20 pm

Kevin - a couple of questions (apologies if already answered earlier):
* You say your family name is Scheytt, but you post and sign as Wood. What am I missing?
* Curious where you found the other version of Scheytt arms you just posted in your other thread re: crabs as heraldic charges.
Thanks!!
Mike~~
Mike~~
Fremont, California

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