I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

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Joseph M James
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I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:36 pm

If my 7x great grandfather in the male line of my father's family was an armiger. Then my 6x great grandfather left England for the American Colonies and dropped the use of the arms, can I assume the arms in their entirety If I prove my lineage through registered genealogist ?
Now to complicate things. If my 5x great grandfather on my mother's side (her father's direct male ancestor) was an armiger and the arms stopped being used about 1800 could I place them in pretense in the center of the of the other arms to honor my mother's family? If allowable, but not in the center, where? If everything is acceptable I should be able to register them with no problem, right? I mean why create an entirely new coa if you have a couple floating around in your families history. Thanks in advance, J M James

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Chris Green
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Chris Green » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:15 pm

If you can prove the direct link to your 7xggf, you can take the evidence to the College of Arms and have them confirm your right to arms. They would also help you with establishing your right to quarter those arms with those of your mother's family. I applaud your desire to seek out the arms to which you may be entitled rather than simply assume new arms.
Chris Green
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Joseph M James
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:33 am

Thank you Mr. Green, I doubt the College of Arms would go with quartering as the arms associated my mother's family are 100% Bavarian,but I'll admit I didn't think of quartering.I thought of inescutcheon of pretense because I believe(with what little I know about heraldry) that in accepted rules I have absolutely no right to those arms in any other way and even that way is pushing the rules, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thank you again J M (Joe) James

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Chris Green
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Chris Green » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:44 am

Joe: So your mother's family is Bavarian. You omitted to mention that salient fact! Accurate advice is a function of accurate information.

1) It is not impossible to marshal the arms of people of different nationalities, royals have been doing so for centuries. But in their case the arms of the female side were seldom inherited by the sons.

2) Simply quartering the arms of 7xggf (paternal) and 5xggf (maternal) is on reflection almost certainly not a starter, as that would suggest that they were married to each other. But then an inescutcheon would suggest that those were the arms of your wife.

3) It occurs to me that another salient fact that you omitted was whether your relationship to your armigerous ggfs is via cadet lines not 1st son to 1st son throughout. The balance of probabilities says that there were probably some junior sons in there somewhere. If that is so, your claim on the unaltered arms of either ggf is weak.

All that said, the College of Arms would probably be prepared to grant you arms that were closely based on those of your 7xggf (paternal) including in some form elements of the arms of your 5xggf (maternal). The College has considerable experience of advising US clients.
Chris Green
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:17 am

Joseph - are you a citizen of, or resident in, the UK? If so, I'll derfer to Chris or others. If you aren't living in the UK, you may have other options depending on the rules or customs where you are (as with real estate, "Location, Location, Location" :) )

For example, if you are an American, and assuming that your genealogical research is sound, we would accept your right to inherit and use your paternal ancestor's arms whether or not you choose to seek - and pay the fees for - formal recognition by the English College of Arms. The fact that your more recent ancestors didn't actually use the arms would only be relevant if there were some underlying problem - e.g. a glitch or gap in the genealogical evidence that casts doubt on the actual descent. Older vs younger sons in a given generation wouldn't necessarily matter here, since we treast cadency as optional, unless your immigrant ancestor's arms bore a mark of cadency in England (some did, some didn't) in which case you should probably retain that cadency mark.

Of course you are free to petition the English College of Arms for a confirmation if you wish, if you can afford it; it carries no legal weight here, but you might want to do so nonetheless for sentimental reasons, and their heraldic artwork and calligraphy is generally excellent.

As for your mother's Bavarian arms, the English CoA may or may not accept it as valid, depending on whether the arms were actually granted or confirmed or whatever by the Bavarian state (whoever exercised sovereignty at the time), vs. so-called "burger arms assumed and used by the family without state sanction. For our purposes in the US, it matters not, so long as your mother's descent from the first grantee or user of the arms, as you describe it, is sound. We would accept your parents' right to impale their arms for use here, whether or not the English or German authorities would, since their respective writs don't run here. Whether you could or should quarter or otherwise incorporate your mother's arms with your own paternal arms, I can't say - there are different schoo;s of thought on that question here.

Of course if you are Canadian or some other nationality than US, all this about US customs is merely academic!
Mike~~
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Chris Green
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Chris Green » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:01 am

Joe: All that Michael says is, as far as I know, perfectly sound as far as a US citizen is concerned. But I have commented on the assumption that as your 7xggf was English your intention was not merely to assume those arms but to obtain confirmation from the College of Arms of your entitlement to bear them (or some version of them if you are not the heir in the direct male line). The matter of expense has not previously been raised. But of course the College would charge a fee, and if they have to undertake research on your behalf that would not be insignificant.

I hold no brief from the College of Arms and receive no cut of any fees they may charge as a result of business received on my recommendation. That said, while assuming arms is less costly and far quicker, it simply doesn't, in my opinion, carry the same historical link, nor the same cachet, as the College (or Lord Lyon's Office for that matter if one has Scottish roots) can give.
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:54 pm

Yes Mr. McCartney I am an American. I think you answered my next question which would have been; if my genealogy was good ( I used a German/Mormon genealogist with impeccable credentials because Mormons for the most part take genealogy very seriously,to start my mother's family research) and I decided the College of Arms fees were too much, would I be allowed to have them designed/combined and registered with the AR without too much controversy, though I would LOVE to have them registered with the College of Arms also? Mr. Green I never would have assumed you would get a cut of the fees,but being a capitalist would see nothing wrong with it. J M Joe James

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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:46 pm

I don't know why this thread from last fall popped up as "new" in my browser; bug I am curious: assuming you've thought about it over the past months, what have you decided? And what are the English and. Bavarian arms in question?

Inquiring minds would like to know! ( With apologies if already answered elsewhere...)
Mike~~
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:26 pm

I haven't decided anything as of yet because I haven't finished the genealogy yet. I was about to give up on my mother's side when I recently found a paper in my mother's cedar chest (very faded, but somewhat legible) from about 1700 in which my 6xggf's brother, who appears to have been an officer in the Hessian military is stating his grandfather had been ennobled and knighted which I believe would be mid 1600s. That would mean going back two more generations. MORE MONEY! As for my father's side, my cousin has refused to use a certified genealogist in his research so when I am finished with my mother's family I guess I will start on my father's family. I have attached a picture of a coa was that supposedly copied from church records by the Pastor in the 1920s in Bullenheim, Bavaria where my 4th, 5th,and 6th ggfs were both mayor and sheriff for life serving for the von Huttens who were imperial knights. The more I've learned about heraldry the more dubious these arms appear, but who knows? J M James
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Chris Green
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Chris Green » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:45 am

You seem to have your work cut out!

As for your comment:
The more I've learned about heraldry the more dubious these arms appear, but who knows?
I agree. To me they appear to be the work of a child, or someone whose understanding of heraldry is extremely limited. If it was indeed the pastor at Bullenheim, then clearly the latter rather than the former. Just a thought - have you investigated the wineries at Bullenheim and elsewhere in Mainfranken? The arms depicted might just be the sort of thing one sees as logos on wine bottles.
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:24 am

While the sketch may be flawed, that could as easily have been merely the fault of the priest who made the copy - did he copy it with the original in from t of him, or perhaps from memory some days / weeks later?

You won't really know unless / until your research turns up something more solid than your cousin's DIY digging.

But in the meantime, I heartily endorse Chris's suggestion re: some DIY viticultural research - just remember to bring a designated driver!
Last edited by Michael F. McCartney on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Joseph M James
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:03 am

I had always noticed what looked like grape leaves at the ends of the mantle,but never thought about wine. Maybe the Pastor saw that on his own wine collection and thought it was normal.
I took an internet tour of wineries in the area and looked at hundreds of them and noticed very few used coas. Most used very modern logos and labels which are probably less expensive to print then a complicated and multicolored coa.
Moving on, I have attached the only coa in Siebmachers attributed to a person with my mother's family surname ZIPFEL. These are the burger arms of Simon Zipfel , Nurnberg, 1710. He would have been a contemporary of my 6xggf ( 1684-1748). He could have been a brother or cousin as my mother's family were concentrated within 50 miles of Nurnberg from 1684 on. My mother was born in Nurnberg. The blazon only says A Rooster On A Mount, nothing else. I hope he was a courageous chicken to end up on a coa. I'm kind of using the mention of Siebmachers to segue to a site I found recently. In 2010 I digitized the Index to Siebmachers because I couldn't buy it anywhere, they were all in institutions. As of last year you can find it on the link I'm providing. Just type in a german surname and click on search. If you do get a hit, click on it and you should see the blazon and the word TAFEL or its abrev. TAF, and a number, Tafel translates to plate. you then flip though the book until you find that plate number to see the coa. Be advised some of these books are digitized backwards. I hope this isn't old news. J M James
http://data.cerl.org/siebmacher/_search
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... So/pubhtml
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Michael F. McCartney
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Michael F. McCartney » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:58 am

Thanks for the link! - though in my case, it only confirms that the few German maternal lines in my family shrubbery weren't armigers! :(
Mike~~
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Kurt Alex
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Kurt Alex » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:06 am

Hi Joe,

Regarding the party per Argent and Gules arms you posted, you might wish to contact the C.A. Starke Verlag in Germany to see if the current Hessisches Familienwappenbuch or the earlier Rhein-Mainisches Wappenbuch (pub. 1943) contains any arms for the Zipfel family. Many family arms granted locally did not end up in Siebmacher or Rietstap. Recently had such a case in the Heraldik im Netz forum where I am a member. See my PM in this regard. Also this link http://www.heraldik-studio.de/hwb.htm. The first-name book is a newer publication, so not viewable on the Internet. The second-named book should be out of copyright protection (70 years, correct) by now, but I couldn't find a scan of it. Maybe you will have better success. BTW - the Hutten family arms are on the Internet (Gules, 2 bends Or) according to a site in German on Bavarian nobility (Wikipedia shows bend sinister, which I believe must be a mistake continued from the mirror-image arms printed in Siebmacher with helm angled to sinister). This may actually lend some credence to the Argent and Gules arms you posted. Have you search for Zipfel in the Deutsches Geschechterbuch?. Another reason to post in the HIN forum.

Regards from South Carolina

Kurt

Joseph M James
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Joseph M James » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:14 am

Hi Kurt,
If you look in Siebmacher's Grosses und Allgemeines Wappenbuch. bd.2 ( Bluhender Adel deutscher Landschaften ). 1.abt. Der Adel des Konigreichs Bayern, Nurnberg 1856, 41. On the page 41 directly under the name Hutten you will see zu Stolzenberg, under that you will see........das wappen zeigt in r. zwei g. schraglinksbalken. I translate this as "the coat of arms shows in red. two gold-oblique left-hand bars. In English: gules, two bends sinister. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I've attached the coa from the same book, notice the position of the helm as you mentioned some helms positioned facing right or left. I think this might be a case of artistic license.
I read your pm and will act on it, thank you very much for the info.
Oh, your eclipse coa is nice, I wish I could do work like that and keep those links coming.
Joseph M ( Joe ) James
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Kurt Alex
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Re: I know I sound dense,but I want to get this straight

Post by Kurt Alex » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:30 pm

Hi Joe,
After some further sleuthing, I am beginning to wonder which is correct, 2 bends or 2 bends sinister. Take at look at the image at the top of this page https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayern ... elsfamilie , and then farther down on the page where the 'Ahnenproble' (pedigree/lineage) for Wilhelm Franz Ferdinand von Hutten reverts to 2 bends sinister, and then there's this page https://frankfurter-patriziat.de/node/26973 just to add to the confusion. As I learned in the HIN forum, over the centuries some families were a bit 'loose' with how the family arms were handled, leading to occasional reversals. Of course, the 'new' technology of printing didn't help when an incorrect depiction was subsequently propagated. In any case, the 2 bends (bendlets) sinister on the sinister side in the 'potential' Zipel arms (as a reference to being in the service of the von Huttens) still lend some credence to the possibility.

As for helm angled to dexter or sinister, see the von Hutten COAs at the bottom left on this page http://www.wappenbuch.de/pages/wappen_1 ... macher.htm where the 2 outer helms at left and right are angled toward each other, while the center helm faces forward. As I also learned in the HIN forum, sometimes the entire COA was mirror-imaged intentionally and sometimes unintentionally at these positions, the former under the term 'heraldic courtesy', the latter under the term 'mistake on the part of the printer/engraver'.

I don't think that we can make a statement as to whether bends or bends sinister is 'correct', since family members appear to have used both. C'est la vie.

BTW - here is a screenshot showing entries for Zipfel in an index of the Deutsches Geschlechterbuch series (right-click and open in new link to enlarge to legible size)

Image

Unfortunately, not all texts of these books are online yet from what I can tell, but I haven't conducted any exhaustive research in that regard either. Hope this helps you dig a bit deeper and can mayber confirm the COA from the churchbook. I suggest again that you consider joining the HIN forum and posting a question about the Zipfel line of your family. keep us posted.

Regards from SC

Kurt

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