pale engrailed

[Joseph M James]

Am I correct that a pale should cover about 1/3 of the area of a shield at it's widest point, ( I prefer the shield shape found in Siebmacher's). If so where would the measurement be on a pale engrailed, to the inside of the pale, ( the inner most rounded side ) or the the outer ( the tip of the points) or 1/2 way between the two?
Thank you in advance.
J.M James

[Michael F. McCartney]

Art vs. science!

So long as the pale is roughly 1/3 as wide as the shield, give or take, it should be heraldically "correct" - that is, recognizable as an heraldic pale, as opposed to (significantly narrower) pallet or a (significantly wider) Canadian pale.

But to create attractive and visually compelling heraldic art, the artist will likely need to play with a few rough drafts, all heraldically "correct" in a technical sense but differing in visual feel and impact.

One can generalize that a charged pale on a plain field will likely look better if the pale is a bit wider, and a plain pale between two major charges will likely look better if a bit narrower; but unless one's mind's eye is way better than mine, one won't really know without sketching out a few rough drafts with differing proportions.

[Joseph M James]

Thank you Mr McCartney, that makes sense especially since this pale is charged with a lion rampant.

[J Duncan of Sketraw]

Is this for your own arms James?

[Michael F. McCartney]

Ditto John's question. Also, do you have a sketch and/or blazon you would be willing to share? My mind's eye is craving it's MDR of eye candy (or mind's-eye-candy... )

[Joseph M James]

My earlier reply seems to have disappeared so here I go again. No, this is not for me. I'm playing with my computer. Years ago I picked a shield from Siebmacher's (renaissance I believe), taped it to my 55 gal. aquarium and traced it,then with an x-acto knife and glue, replaced the frog mouth helmet with a barred helmet keeping the mantle. It's crude, but I like it for now. What I've been doing lately is I picked ( what I thought was an easy blazon from Burke's) and I have been attempting to resize and color the individual pieces that I found on heraldry clip art sites. I'm slowly getting it, very slowly. Now while I have your attention, if a blazon says lion " any posture or piece" azure, gules, etc. and nothing else is there a default color for the tongue and claws?
Joseph M ( Joe) James

[Martin Goldstraw]

" A lion rampant and any other beast of prey is usually represented in heraldry with the tongue and claws of a different colour from the animal. If it is not itself gules, its tongue and claws are usually represented of that colour, unless the lion be on a field of gules. They are then represented Azure, the term being "armed and langued" of such and such a colour. It is not necessary to mention that a lion is "armed and langued" in the blazon when tongue and claws are emblazoned in gules, but whenever any other colour is introduced for the purpose it is better that it should be specified. Outside British heraldry a lion is always supposed to be rampant unless otherwise specifically described."

This quote is from A Complete Guide to Heraldry by A.C. Fox-Davies.

Whilst it is always a pleasure for us know it alls to respond to inquiries, the ultimate help is to try to find a reasonably well known heraldry book (most are now available cheaply second hand) and have it by you whenever you start a project. Many well know reference books are now available free to download. The only caveat is that many of these books are now over 100 years old and whilst they do have the founding principles they may, in a very few instances, be a tad out of date ... but if they are, us know it alls will be pleased to assist.

[Joseph M James]

Thank you Mr Goldstraw, I keep forgetting about resources like Fox-Davies. When I was involved with construction and had a question I would go directly to the engineers because what was acceptable last year on one project might not be the next year on a different project. It's an old habit I need to break when it comes to heraldry which appears to have been fairly stable for a long time.
Joseph M (Joe) James