Arms for feudal Barons

Acquiring armorial bearing, international heraldic authorities and assuming of arms.
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bghamilton
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Arms for feudal Barons

Post by bghamilton » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:13 am

Most forumers will be aware of the uncertain position of feudal barons and the Lord Lyon's policy on their right to arms with additaments appropriate to a feudal baron. The Lord Lyon is hearing the petition, in his court on Tuesday 18th April, of Margaret Hamilton of Rockhall, Baroness of Lag. He has undertaken to issue a written decision within 28 days. It is hoped, by that written decision, to have a clear understanding of Lyon Court policy with regards to this matter.

I shall post the decision on this forum as soon as it is available.

Kind regards,

Brian G. Hamilton.

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Guye Pennington
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Status of Feudal Barons

Post by Guye Pennington » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:13 pm

Wonderful news!! I look forward to hearing his decision. Just out of curiousity, what happens if the Lord Lyon decides to discontinue the cloak and chapeau on arms granted to formerly feudal barons? Could Her Majesty overturn a decision of the Lord Lyons in matters of heraldic jurisdiction?
Many thanks!
Guye
Last edited by Guye Pennington on Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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M Harden of Cowdenknowes
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Post by M Harden of Cowdenknowes » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:14 pm

Dear Guye,
Lyon's decision will not effect already recognized Baron's but will effect post appointed day (Nov 28th 2004) petitions for Baronial additiments.
Regards,

Mark Harden of Cowdenknowes

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J Duncan of Sketraw
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Post by J Duncan of Sketraw » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:18 am

Unless of course the Baroness of Lag wins the case Mark
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M Harden of Cowdenknowes
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Post by M Harden of Cowdenknowes » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:27 am

Very true indeed John, I stand corrected :lol:
Regards,

Mark Harden of Cowdenknowes

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Guye Pennington
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Formerly feudal barons

Post by Guye Pennington » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:46 am

My apologies -- I did not phrase my question well. If the Lord Lyon does not decide to continue to grant additaments traditionally allowed to feudal barons to new future owners of incorporeal hereditaments that once were feudal baronies (I truly wish we could come up with a better description for the future barons), could Her Majesty overrule him? The reason I ask is I recently proposed a somewhat unique scenario to the private secretary of Her Majesty, even though I realize it is EXTREMELY unlikely that my idea would be executed. Furthermore, though this response is about to get long, I promise that there is a heraldry topic at the end.
Specifically, my reasoning to Her Majesty was as follows. There are over currently 2,000 unclaimed Scottish feudal baronies which have been lost to the sands of time, but an Act of the Crown can only be overturned by a subsequent Act of the Crown. Therefore, these lost baronies still exist, but they were unclaimable as evidence of the location of the caputs was not conclusive. However, now that caputs are no longer necessary, I proposed that Her Majesty offer these lost baronies to the public (albeit only a few at a time as not to flood the market) by arbitrating through Royal Prerogative the owner of the now incorporeal hereditament. Of course, any new owner of the barony would have colored title (should evidence of the location of the caput and the caput's owner on November 28, 2004 eventually surface), but I believe the Scots have something similar to adverse possession laws we have in the States (for the record, I am only an American law student, wealth planner, and owner of some business holdings -- I am not very familiar at all with Scottish land law). If Scottish law does offer adverse possession, then the new owner of the incorporeal hereditament would be subject to conflicting evidence of ownership only for the statutory period necessary for adverse possession to perfect title.
As such, I suggested to the private secretary of Her Majesty that it would considerably assist the marketability of these lost baronies if there was recommendation made to the Lord Lyon that these new owners of the lost baronies receive heraldic additaments traditionally granted to feudal barons. Therefore, does the Lord Lyon have complete jurisdiction of heraldry in Scotland, or may Her Majesty supersede his rulings?
Again, please note I consider it an extremely small chance of Her Majesty acting upon my proposal, but I think the idea holds enough merit that it was worth relaying to her.
What is the group's thoughts?
Many thanks!
Guye
Last edited by Guye Pennington on Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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J Duncan of Sketraw
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Post by J Duncan of Sketraw » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:07 am

Guye the best person to give you an overall view on 'Feudal Baronies' is Brian Hamilton. He has been delving into them for years and probably knows more than the rest of us put together.
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Scottish Feudal baronies

Post by Guye Pennington » Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:13 am

Thanks, John -- I appreciate it! Mr. Hamilton, at your convenience, would you relay your thoughts?
Respectfully yours,
Guye
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Post by bghamilton » Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:32 am

John, thank you for your kind remarks. I welcome the discussion here but at this time must refrain from joining. I am sure that Senior Counsel would not be best pleased if I were to lay our case out here before he had a chance to make the case in the Lyon Court.

There is no harm done if you have a wide ranging discussion and I will join you once Lyon's Opinion is made public.

Kind Regards,

Brian G. Hamilton.

P.S. What about some of those arms? Are they not super?
Brian G. Hamilton

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Stephen J F Plowman
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Post by Stephen J F Plowman » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:59 am

Guye

Personally I think you are correct in expecting that there is little chance of your suggestion being acted upon. The possible complications caused by the “true” owner turning up at a later date will be too much of a legal headache. Furthermore, we in the UK are in the fall out period of a possible “cash for titles” scandal. Whilst Scottish Feudal Baronies are a totally separate issue, to the public mind if the Crown started touting “lost” baronies for sale it would be deemed all part of the same malpractice.

The major issue is how many of the 2,000 baronies are really lost rather than ignored by the current “baron”. If I might cite to possible examples from the Scottish side of my family. The Tweedie family held at one time the Baronies of Drummelzier and Oliver Castle both on the River Tweed. Neither of which appear to have a current identified baron. The caput for Drummelzier was probably (in) Drummelzier Castle. The Castle itself is now in ruins and is part of the outbuildings of a farm now known as Drummelzier Place. The caput of Oliver Castle was probably originally in the Castle itself before the occupants moved to Oliver House a few hundred yards away. The castle is now, I believe, covered by trees. Unless there has been a sale post Appointed Day, these two baronies are still in the possession of the owner of the caput. Before either of these baronies could be offered up for sale, the Crown would be expected to have thoroughly investigated as to whether or not the barony was really “lost”. To attempt any such sale without an investigation would be most reckless. The Treasury, I assume, would hope that the costs of such investigations would be covered by the subsequent sale price – presuming such a sale eventually occurred.
Yours aye

Stephen


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Guye Pennington
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Lost Baronial caputs

Post by Guye Pennington » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:04 am

Greetings, Mr. Plowman! Thank you for your response and the great personal example you cited. Yes, I had envisioned the Crown having to hire solicitors (are non-court practitioners of law called solicitors in Scotland as well as in England?) to conduct due diligence prior to conducting any offerings, but my thinking is that a current formerly feudal title seems to be selling in the 55,000 - 75,000 pound range, and, of course, an adjudication from the Crown would only have colored title until adverse possession perfected it. Therefore, the market price would be less, but if the Crown could have its agent sell a barony for around just 40,000 pounds and could keep its expenses to less than 5,000 in legal fees, it would still provide a (albeit small) source of revenue to the Crown for many years, but, more importantly, it would also allow more of us "foreigners" who love Scotland/England to share in a cultural heritage I consider dear. And, yes, while it easily could be construed as vanity, I love the idea of having a baronial title that could be passed ad infinitum to future Pennington generations (the only titled Penningtons became extinct in 1917). Now that Scottish formerly feudal baronies are incorporeal hereditaments, I could easily foresee placing it in an Alaska or Delaware trust (one of the very few states in the U.S. that have overturned the common law Rule Against Perpetuities) to make certain that no future generation could sell it, thereby preserving a cultural legacy forever (or at least for as long as the United States survives and the underlying trust law exists).
To that end, I find myself a bit envious of your Tweedie connections... :wink:
On a related note, I have not heard of a cash for titles scandal in the U.K.. Would you elaborate?
Again, for the record, I truly believe the Crown has about as much chance of enacting my idea as the United States relinquishing its sovereignty and returning to the Crown, but I think it's an interesting idea nonetheless.
Respectfully yours,
Guye
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Post by Guye Pennington » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:06 pm

Greetings, all! Well, I was rather surprised, but I received a reply from the Crown today regarding my proposal. It actually emanated from the Lord Lyon, and his letter relayed that it is technically incorrect to say that only 174 formerly feudal baronies are claimed and the rest have been lost. It is instead correct to state that none have been lost but only 174 have applied for arms. Therefore, the Crown could not adjudicate ownership claims when ownership is already manifest.

This makes sense to me, and I will drop the matter. At least I have the Lord Lyon's personal signature to add to my collection. :)

Respectfully yours,
Guye

If any on this list are close to the Lord Lyon, please relay my thanks to him for responding to my letter.
Guye W. Pennington
"Victory without honor is defeat."

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